Thriving in career transitions with Holly Smevog

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Hi everybody. Welcome back to This Daring Adventure, and today I have a special guest. I have Holly Smevog. Welcome Holly. Holly is with HMS Career Coaching. She is a globally certified career counselor and job search coach, and she is connecting people with their best career through counseling, coaching and consulting services. And she has experience in both public and private sectors, in organizations large and small. And Holly has helped hundreds of people find their vocational sweet spot. And I should also mention that Holly is a former client of mine. Welcome Holly. Thank you so much for being here today.

You're welcome. It's my pleasure. I'm excited. Thank you.

Yeah, it's so nice to catch up with you and I really was excited to have you on because as I was saying just before we started, I do have a number of clients who come to me who are looking to change careers in midlife or who have, lost their job or want to make a job change. But it's a struggle. And once we get into our fifties and we can dive into to all of that, but welcome and why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself and the coaching that you do.

Sure. I myself had a circuitous path to this career of career coaching, which I discovered about 10 years ago now. But I worked in Silicon Valley for technology companies and have a long career in marketing, research, product development, and then started to get into. Educational technology and working in schools. And that led me to career, to kind of college counseling. And there was one class in my counseling program, which was on career counseling. And most people hated that class. And I absolutely loved it. And I knew right away that was my thing. When can I hang my shingle? And I realized that I had been the person. That friends and family had been reaching out to since, adulthood. What should I do with my career? I have this interview coming up, what should I say? Oh, can you take a look at my resume? And it was all of these experiences coming full circle to the place I was meant to be. So I started the company in about 2017. And in 2020 with the pandemic we got busier. So I've been working with five coaches on my team and a couple resume writers, and we help individuals, largely mid-career professionals, men and women who get to a point. Where they've built a career over a few decades and they just feel like it's time for a change. Some people have been laid off or lost their jobs, but other people realize that they really want more meaning out of their career, or that they've followed a path of happenstance, fallen into jobs along the way, and they. Kind of wake up one day and think, how did I get here? And I really wanna put more intention into my career at this moment. And I get, friends and family often, or get tired of hearing you ask what should I do with my career? Or giving their advice. And so people turn to a career coach to really, get clear direction and get back on their feet.

Okay. I think this is so interesting because yes I'm seeing this with a lot of women. So you're working with both men and women, correct?

That's

right. Do you see any challenges that maybe women face different than men?

I do see much more a typical pattern with women of, they followed careers that allowed them flexibility for things like motherhood or, whatever their role in a partner in a relationship was or just less of a typical. Corporate path, oftentimes. And maybe they're thinking, I don't know, I've had all these different jobs. How do my skills transfer into something else? Or women who are facing divorce, for instance, who haven't needed to bring in a certain salary. And now they're at a point where I, their needs and their values have really changed. And how does a career, match that? How can they solve this problem?

Okay. And then of course, I think you've heard it, I've heard it several times, we're in our mid to late fifties, who's going to hire us? What are our options? And what do you tell people when they come to you and are feeling like they're just not employable any longer. Or that these challenges exist.

Yeah, I think ageism is a thing and that it's also the worst thing is when, we limit ourselves by believing that, they're not, that you're not gonna find a job and the best way to combat it is to come from a strong candidate perspective. So to set yourself up well, and I think that people even with really varied careers up until, middle age don't, they have so many transferable skills that come together in powerful ways. And so that's how we work with people to really figure out what's their most powerful message. And where and what, starting from a place of reflecting internally, let's look at you and figure out all the things that you're bringing to the table right now. And also what you really want in your life, what you need, your values and synthesize that in a way that really resonates with someone, and then look, okay, now that we can, now that we have a great message, we've articulated your professional identity in a way that excites you. Where in the market is someone looking to hire you? Where is there are you valued out there and coming once you're standing firmly in your own feet in terms of owning what you're bringing? Your potential, it's a lot easier to convince somebody else that you know, that you have something to offer. And I think that older workers really do have a lot to offer because there can be, the softer skills can make someone a really strong leader can train and be great role models for younger people. So I think there really is a value and a lot of employers are seeing that. So I do see good hiring rates for older people. In many places there is a workforce shortage in many states. For instance, the state that I live in, there's a lot of people retiring and not as many younger people moving in. So the market for older workers is pretty strong.

Okay. So then Do you do certain assessments or certain quizzes or certain. Trainings with your clients to help them narrow some of their skills and strengths?

Yeah. Interests? Yeah, since we've been doing this for a while, we do have a four step process essentially, and we've even developed a course, an online course. It has 37 modules that kind of guides people through career transition, and there's a workbook along with that and some assessments built in, but. Typically. First phase, we do use assessments. We use sort of Myers-Briggs personality plus the strong interest inventory, which has a career focused element. And we have use Gallup StrengthsFinder, which is more about like your innate strengths. So what are the unique, what is your secret sauce like that you're born with? And we have a values assessment that we've created that helps people figure out their priorities today. And assessments are very much an instrument in the coaching conversation. Not a scientific pointer, but that's the first thing we do is really take a look at you and if people are feeling. Insecure and worried. There's also that emotional component of, mental fitness and mindset that we address to let's get you feeling really strong. And then, and that whole process naturally lends into what I was talking about, where you get direction then in the market, what job titles might you be looking for. And then in the third phase. It's about strategy. So coming up with your own personalized plan to crack the job search or the career pivot. And that is a place where we're working on your resume and your LinkedIn and the resume is a really interesting project because the resume today isn't really a list of responsibilities. It's more of a story of highlights, like the things that you're most proud of from your career. You start to again, gain confidence and think about how you would be talking to someone in a networking conversation and then an interview. So it all builds on itself. And once we get the resume linked in LinkedIn, we put a networking plan together and an application plan and roll out from there.

So then how long, typically, I know maybe this isn't a precise science, obviously, but how long does it take for someone who's switching careers to identify or to get a new job, and how long typically do your clients work with you?

Interesting questions. The average time for a job search, so if someone's been laid off for in instance, is about five months. We usually help people get jobs in about three months. So getting career coaching helps people land jobs faster. Our standard program is actually two months because that is what we found is the right amount of time to get you on your feet, get your direction, hone your messaging, and. Get you, ready to hit the market. And then people are going out on their own doing some application. Maybe they're already interviewing and negotiating a job offer, but typically eight weeks is enough to get direction and get you going on the job search.

And then is there any sort of follow up support when people are continuing to interview? Maybe I. What happens when people are in the thick of it?

We provide mock interviewing, of course, as part of our coaching package. We also have an interactive interview app that you, that people can access even after they're done coaching at us, which is coaching with us, which is a very helpful service that actually evaluate your performance in an interview and sets up custom interviews for you. And people will continue to reach out to us. We're, we think of our coaching as a partnership, so we're boots on the ground with you. Even if we have a set number of sessions, we're texting and emailing in between, and we have a private LinkedIn ask a coach group where people can write in any time questions and have a coach answer their question.

Do you use chat GPT at all? Would that be helpful for people to prepare or to, prepare, maybe prepare questions, prepare answers, are you tapping into that at all?

Definitely. Yeah. So I try to steer people away from having AI actually write things that they're submitting, but it's fantastic for analyzing a job description and pulling out keywords for that, you would want to actually copy. It's important to actually copy the exact keywords from a job description onto your resume to make it through the applicant tracking systems. So that's where AI really helps out. Also be before an interview, you can put in the job description and request, you know what would be 30 minutes of interview questions from this job description. That's super helpful. When I am steering people towards cover letters, I usually suggest AI in a more custom way. Give me the top three categories of skills they're really looking for in this job. And then you can gear your cover letter using that. But I think AI is a really helpful tool. Yeah.

Yeah, I was trying to think the other day whether there would be some prompts that I could create for my clients. I was playing around like whether, if people are feeling stuck and maybe coming, I don't know. I was just thinking like there's got to be a way that we could help them to, do some exploration maybe, or

I think there are some yeah. First of all, really interesting questions that people should ask themselves. You can probably imagine these, but when, when was the last time in your career where you really felt like in your flow and happy? What were you doing then? And then similarly, like when you're around people in a professional setting, like what's, what are those interactions like? And trying to ask yourselves those questions. But I think that if certain things about yourself I. You can probably use AI to what are good jobs for someone who, prefers to work as an independent contributor and has, marketing skills. I think there are lots of ways to get ideas. I think that's why career coaching helps though, because you brought up a good point is that AI is so huge, the world of information is so huge and. Even before all this technology, people would come to us and they're like, there's just so many ideas running through my head and I have all the ideas, but I also have all the pros and cons of all those ideas and I just can't make sense of it all. And that's what happens when people dive out into the internet.

Okay. Do you touch on a career as a person's identity? I've had, I've been asked that a few times myself and been part of discussions where, trying to shift away from that, and maybe particularly someone's been in a position for a number of decades and that's been their identity. And trying to sh obviously if you're, you've been in one career and you're shifting to another, that could bring up a lot of issues. But also just trying to get away from that, that your career doesn't have to be your identity. That you're this whole person and not placing, because I'm seeing, people putting so much emphasis or importance on the career to define them and make them who they are. So I don't know whether that comes up at all for you in some of the work that you do.

It comes up in a couple different ways. I think you're right. Sometimes it's helpful to compartmentalize. We get into these patterns and sometimes the patterns can become boring or unsatisfying over time. And so it, I see that happening in people's jobs where they just start to feel, more down about their work. 'cause it's not new and it's not exciting and. They're just not getting satisfaction from it. So some of the things that happen when I'm talking with people is when we look at interests, there's hobby there. Some interests can be hobbies, like things that you do outside of work, and in some cases the end result isn't getting someone a new job. But it's how to build those satisfying activities into your life, outside of work hours. And another thing that people do increasingly is have a side hustle. So they'll have a job, but they'll, say I've always been interested in coaching or I've al always been interested in. Creating toys for kids or something like that. And so they'll start doing it on the side and they'll feel more fulfilled and that will take the pressure off of work and they'll think, actually, I'm not that disappointed with my job.

Yes, exactly. I think that's really important because it is a mind shift or a mindset shift where yes, the job is just a circumstance, right? And it's not there to make you happy. It's not there to fulfill you. It's not there to give you all of these things. You want to show up, you want to do a good job, you want to be valuable. And obviously it provides you with a livelihood. But yes, It's not there to give you value. It's not there to e even, fulfill you or to do anything for you other than provide that livelihood. And I do understand because I wanted to do rewarding work. And now as a coach it's really important. But for me there's also been a shift to challenging myself to keep learning and growing, and it doesn't have to necessarily be career related. And as you said, a side hustle or hobby or whatever it may be. It's that opportunity for us to invest in ourselves or time or energy, our resources to keep growing and to see what our capacity is and what the possibility. What possibilities exist for us out there that can give us energy and light us up and give us joy.

I think getting back to what you said at the very beginning about people coming to you who are feeling stuck, I see that a lot and by the time they have a conversation with me, everything's shrouded in this things are bad with my career or, and it results in a thinking that they need to make 180 degree shift. Everything needs to change. And when we pull it apart, shifting one or two things could make a huge difference. Moving to a different department or even having this conversation with your boss or maybe getting a different job for a different company, but still continuing to do what you do. Not completely shaking everything up.

Because it, it's okay to make a change, but you really want to be conscious of why you're doing that. Because if you think it's going to be better over there than it is here, you're going to be disappointed, 'cause you're going to take your brain with you. You're gonna have the same thinking patterns, the same habits, right? So you can go to that new position, you can go to that new department and it's going to be exciting and it's going to be different and it's going to be fun because our brain loves that novelty. It loves something new and different, and then that novelty is going to wear off. And you're going to go back to those same thought patterns that you know, you were facing previously. And I see this because people think they need to change their house, they need to change their relationship, they need to change, their cities, whatever it is. And I see that, with some of my clients, like they think if they find this career or they find this job in the same way. Someone thinks if I find this man or this relationship, this is what's going to make me happy and this is what's going make me fulfilled. And I'm like, no, it doesn't necessarily work out quite like that.

Exactly. When you know, and it's like when you're meeting a coaching client at the beginning. You're trying to get really clear on what they're looking for with the outcome. You're trying to also get, what's that feeling? What is, not just the result, like the new relationship or the new career, but what are you feeling about it that makes it so different? And then what you're making me think, which is super helpful, is what are the thoughts that you are going to hold at that moment that will make you feel that way. And if I, that's a really powerful concept to Exactly, yes. Plan and to that extent.

Yeah. And so I tell people, you can make that change, but don't do it from a place of scarcity. Or hurry. And that you think it's gonna fix everything. You can change jobs, you can change relationships because you want to, right? Have your reasons like them. But just clean up your thinking beforehand and know why you're making that change and really like your reasons. And then be prepared. It's not gonna be all rainbows and daisies over there either. It's not necessarily gonna be more exciting. It's not going to necessarily be more fulfilling. But just you need to be aware and clean up your thinking every day when I'm working with my clients, you need to clean up that thinking. No matter what. And whether that's creating your own business or looking for a job or you're in a relationship with your partner, husband, whomever it is, you, it's work. It's going to be work. So you need to just really be aware of what you're thinking and. It's not going to be any better over there

than it's now. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I'm writing that down now. Clean up your thinking. That's how I'm going to spend my day.

Yeah. Good. All right. I. I have loved having you on. It's been so great to learn more about your work and to catch up with you again. Do you have anything you, any advice or tips or guidance you want to leave people with as we wrap up here?

I would just say, alongside what I was what we were talking about before was that everybody has skills that are valuable in the marketplace and sometimes it's hard to see them. I. So if people who are having trouble, there's lots of, free resources or coaching, but everybody has a place in the market where someone's needing to pay you for your skills today.

That's good. I like that. And I will make sure we have all of your information and links in the show notes, but if you want to tell people how they can find you.

Sure. Yes. My website is probably a great place, HMS career coaching.com. And we're on Instagram too. HMS career coaching. Okay. Thank you so much for having me on. This has been such a pleasure.

Thank you, Holly. I think it's been really helpful for everybody. And thank you for your time.

Thank you for listening to This Daring Adventure podcast with your host Trista Guertin. We hope you enjoyed the tips and conversations on how to get excited about life Again, as always, you can head to tristaguertin.com for additional resources and to book a one-on-one coaching session. You can also follow Trista on Instagram at tristavguertin. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Thanks again for tuning in and we'll see you next time.